American Founding Fathers

[RedOctober]

Well, its in the news, the papers, etc. You can't run too far without hearing "The American Founding Fathers were Christian" from Fundamentalist and Elite Fundamentalist...so...are they telling the truth?

[wall]

It seems thatmost of the founding fathers held on to higher morals then the nation does today. I don't think all of them were true Christians but probably the majority. Not necessarily a founding father but I feel Abraham Lincoln was a Christian man.

[kbdflash]

I have always thought that since in the constituition God was written in there and same on our currency that themajority of thefounding fathersat that timewhere christian, but not as todays christians, (ie. ones with morals and values).

What do you think Red?

[Guest]

The founding fathers of the USA were not Christian in the Bible sence of the word, they were actually Diests. They accepted the existance of a supreme being, but that he was in the background of human affairs, and that all authority was given to the wise people(political leaders) to lead humanity, very similar to contemporaryhumanism, but more related as a materialization of Plato's Republic. They were all schooled in political-philosophy as well as the Bible, and felt that God endowed them with inalienable rights.

George Washington was a Mason for example; Thomas Jefferson, who penned the words that all men are created equal, felt that theelite were assigned the responsibility to run the state. Jeffersonsaw nothing wrong with slavery (since they were not part of the equal), and later in his life had several children through his favorite slave-girl.

[jeremyb]

MolokanCO Wrote:The founding fathers of the USA were not Christian in the Bible sence of the word, they were actually Diests. They accepted the existance of a supreme being, but that he was in the background of human affairs, and that all authority was given to the wise people (political leaders) to lead humanity, very similar to contemporaryhumanism, but more related as a materialization of Plato's Republic. They were all schooled in political-philosophy as well as the Bible, and felt that God endowed them with inalienable rights.

George Washington was a Mason for example; Thomas Jefferson, who penned the words that all men are created equal, felt that theelite were assigned the responsibility to run the state. Jeffersonsaw nothing wrong with slavery (since they were not part of the equal), and later in his life had several children through his favorite slave-girl.

I love the history, and I have a question for you. Why did the early pioneers of this country leave the UK for religous freedom.

[RedOctober]

kbdflash Wrote:What do you think Red?

Well...I'm going by thier exact quotes so....

Christianity is the most perverted system shown on man - Thomas Jefferson

[size=2]I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
[/size]From:
The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)

George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.
From:
George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)

John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant achievments" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"
It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
From:
The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.

Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote:
The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."
From:
Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -- Thomas Jefferson (letter to J. Adams April 11,1823)
James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
From:
The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.
Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of nature."
From:
Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.)

[RedOctober]

jeremyb Wrote:I love the history, and I have a question for you. Why did the early pioneers of this country leave the UK for religous freedom.

I love history to. Its taught me that what is written in not neccessarily fact (hence the term don't believe everything you read). The methods in which historians gather information may leave things incomplete or erroneous due to a number of reasons (i.e.didn't feel it was important in thier main work, or had taken a position in opposition, etc.)

Back to your premise, many left the UK for religious reasons....is not entirely correct. Many and the majority left due to political and economic issues and some were quite the opposite of "religion". For example (going by memory here), the Puritan colony ended up attacking and destroying a nearby colony due to its ...ummm..err...lets just say questionable morality....I'll have to find some stuff for you....but when you get to the history of this country, its an eye opener.

[RedOctober]

William Penn is often cited for leaving due to religious reasons....and this is correct. But its important to note that the reasons were aslo realted politically...

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_7615...lliam.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Penn

What is very important to note in historical context, religion and politics often went hand in hand. A differing religion meant a different political party. The ruling king, emperor was often seen as the "head" of the religion (it was God, or some other diety that put him there in most peoples view). Often they had the final say so on not just political issues but religious ones. Example, Emperor Constatine "the first Christian" Emperorhad 3000 (more than any were ever sent to the lions in grand total) Christians killed because they refused to agree with his interpretation of scripture.

Here in the United States with its abolition to church and state, is a very new idea when in context of historical record. Interestingly, with all the talk of "The United States is a Christian Nation" it seems as though it may be coming full circle in making Western Protestant Christianity (which appears many of the founding fathers found abhorent) the "un-official" state religion.

[jeremyb]

very interresting red O i knew ben franklin ( kinda funny because he is on the higest bill in circulation) was an unbeliver i did not know about the rest of the nations fore fathers thanks for the 411

[kbdflash]

If the majority of the founding fathers where non believers then why is "In God we trust" printed on our money?

I find that hypocritical. Any thoughts?