Fact vs. Myth

[Fact]

I won't be allowed to present the facts or will be mocked by heathens and pagans if I post at the phony Molokan web site so I'll present this here.

Fact vs. Myth

Myth: If Jesus isn't God then he can't forgive sins.

Fact: John 5

[20] For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all that he himself is doing; and greater works than these will he show him, that you may marvel.
[21] For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.
[22] The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
[23] that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
[24] Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Origin of Myth: From the Pharisees, Luke 5

[20] And when he saw their faith he said, "Man, your sins are forgiven you."
[21] And the scribes and the Pharisees began to question, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God only?"
[22] When Jesus perceived their questionings, he answered them, "Why do you question in your hearts?
[23] Which is easier, to say, `Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, `Rise and walk'?
[24] But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" -- he said to the man who was paralyzed -- "I say to you, rise, take up your bed and go home."



Myth: Christ is co-equal to God.

Fact: Christ never states this and even says the opposite: John 14

[26] But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
[27] Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.
[28] You heard me say to you, `I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.
[29] And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place, you may believe.
[30] I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me;
[31] but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go hence.

Myth Origin: Probably pagan, either Babylonian (Nimrod, Semiramas, and Tammuz) or Egyptian (Osiris, Isis, and Horus)


This is also a pretty good write up: http://www.molokanunderground.com/thread...l#pid18965

[RedOctober]

Waste of time really...

When confronted with scripture they are trained (brainwashed if you ask me) to dismiss it and/ignore it and move on to another verse (usually out of context or whacked "interpretation") that supports their position.

Pride and fear keeps them from acknowledging what Christ states blatantly who he is. Pride from admitting that they got duped and swindled by snake oil salesmen ministers and fear that they will be out of line of their religious order and declared heretics by them....weak faith I guess.

They are told to just "believe it" and you'll eventually "get it". And they try...and live with a contradictory mind...well if they want to, that's their business.

I of course am more than happy to be called a heretic by someone who ignores the testimony of Jesus the Christ and relies on man made doctrine, mockery and disdain as there defense. Bless whom those that persecute you....

Remember, you can't reason with the unreasonable...and they are so beholden to their false doctrines that they refuse to reason with it (much like the Pharisees did during the time of Christ)...their "church" has told them its a cornerstone of their faith and perdition awaits them if they doubt it....and thus all they can do is repeat the tired old responses like they were trained to do and refuse to let the Holy Spirit guide them.

[KPN]

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This was written by Maxim...

9. THE TRINITY we profess in the Spirit of the one invisible Deity: regarding which the holy Apostle John says, "The Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit; these three are one."
book 5, article 14, verse 9. (page 315)








Also from Maxim...

3. Behold the thrones and those seated upon them: The first throne is God the Father, erected forever in the light unto which no one can approach.
4. The second throne is God the Word, and it stands forever upon Mount Zion. The third throne is God the Holy Spirit, always located in man upon earth at the camp of the saints.
5. Of this He who sits upon the throne says, "He that conquers shall inherit all things, and I will be His God and he shall be My son."
6. Therefore their indivisible and pre-eternal Deity is thus named: The Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit; these three are one.
book 7, article 2, verse 3-6 (page 376)




Was maxim a Trinitarian?


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[RedOctober]

Depends entirely what you mean by "Trinity". If you mean the Trinity Doctrine set forth by the Ecumenical Council of Nicea....the answer is a qualified no. Why?

The Trinity Doctrine is explicit in stating that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are co-equal. However, MGR writes: MGR 11:11:1-11; "We, His true worshipers, faithfully acknowledge Him (God) always and forever; that the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit are personally one in Deity, but in power and authority are not equal."

It may seem like a minor point, but enough Molokans were tortured and killed over this belief in Russia and Molokans here in the USA get enough personal attacks, condemnations, etc. to obviously point out that amongst Protestants, Orthodox, etc. that its a major point with them....enough to even persecute for.

Finally, just about every religion that accepts the New Testament acknowledges that there is a Trinity....the disagreement is the composition of the Trinity. You quoted MGR on the Trinity (and our detractors love to do the same), however, if you are going to do so, then you have to include all references in order to get a complete picture. You can't just include this verse here and that one there and ignore the rest because they don't agree with you.

Likewise, with the Bible, you have to include everything Christ says about his nature, position, etc. not selected verses that agree with the prescribed doctrine. Because when you do include everything, you'll discover that the Bible is at odds with the doctrine. Which creates a very perplexing problem for many. Lets face it, there aren't too many religions out there that oppose the Trinity Doctrine, so you end up with those who attend, but quietly object and ignore the Doctrine...and even in he Mormon religion, you have those who will downplay the book of Mormon but ascribe to everything else.

Lets be blunt, this has nothing to do with the S&L and everything to do with the Bible. MGR's writings came much later to Molokans and they were already opposed to the Trinity Doctrine. But kudos to you KPN, at least you have the courage to come on here and attempt to support the Doctrine. The others are essentially cowards since they know they can't use their typical gimmicks of personal attacks, selective Bible quotes, torturing the Bible and their favorite, going on a red herring of the S&L to distract and change the argument. Because deep down, they know full well that the Trinity Doctrine is indefensible.

[Guest]

RED OCTOBER'S QUESTION: 13. What is the Biblical support for the Trinity Doctrine?

RED OCTOBER'S ANSWER: Could go on forever on them.

RED OCTOBER'S IN DENIAL.

[Guest]

RED OCTOBER'S QUESTION: 13. What is the Biblical support for the Trinity Doctrine?

RED OCTOBER'S ANSWER: Could go on forever on them.

[RedOctober]

Yeap..I could go forever on them. Because every verse you bring out, I can point out how you are torturing and abusing scripture to fit your man made dogma. And rather than acknowledge it, you will just move on to the next tortured/twisted scripture and we could run through all of them....and then you'll just start over from the one you began with...and here we go again. Because you refuse to let the Holy Spirit guide, you rather have man and his dogma, just so you could be told what a good X-tian you are...hey its your life, you wanted it...and you have it.

And of course you provided no scripture because...well, you know its true. Whats wrong, angry when confronted by the truth of the Trinity Doctrine?

...oh and what a surprise, you run back to the safe confines of the web site that says its Molokan...and is obviously not. You know full well I won't post there, I stomped the dust off my feet there and left long ago. Thought you did the same here?

Were not fair here? Really? I'm shocked I tell you, shocked. At least I'm honest about it....whereas over there...gotta love the hypocrisy.

So what you going to do now? Go into the "Red October is deceived" routine? Go into the usual personal attacks, start name calling, such as heretic, cultist, poopy-head, etc. Maybe you should go back to practicing your piety before others...that is handing out worthless tracts (and lie to yourself your doing something) and standing on soap boxes...you can't defend the Trinity Doctrine other than the way your trained and you know it....its dogma...not faith.

[KPN]

So...for clarity.

Is it safe to say that most molokans believe Jesus is God the Son, as long as Jesus is not placed equal with the Father?



As a side note.....I recall an incedent that happended in L.A. young church about 7 years ago.

In a speech, an elder declared that Jesus was the Savior, but God was greater. (Бог выше)
The statement was not, "The Father is greater."
The statement was "God was greater."

This statement seems to contradict the bible.
Jesus never said that God is greater.

Later, the Holy Spirit rebuked this man for that statement.




In our attempt to understand the exact role of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, have the molokans gone too far and rejected the amount of power that God the Son truely has?

Also, if Maxim was not afraid to proclaim that Jesus was God, why would any molokan be ashamed to also proclaim that Jesus is God.
7 Ибо три свидетельствуют на небе: Отец, Слово и Святый Дух; и Сии три суть едино.
Первое послание Иоанна 5:7




Also, what about the dogmas from 1805.
What does the modern day molokan do with the first of the 1805 dogmas.

Article 1 - God We believe in only one God, who exists in Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, as Apostle St. Paul said in his epistle to the Ephesians, Chapter 2, verse 20, "Built upon the foundations of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone." And Christ said in Matthew, Chapter 28, verse 19, "Going therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."





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[somebody]

(01-05-2011 11:20 PM)KPN Wrote:  .



This was written by Maxim...

9. THE TRINITY we profess in the Spirit of the one invisible Deity: regarding which the holy Apostle John says, "The Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit; these three are one."
book 5, article 14, verse 9. (page 315)








Also from Maxim...

3. Behold the thrones and those seated upon them: The first throne is God the Father, erected forever in the light unto which no one can approach.
4. The second throne is God the Word, and it stands forever upon Mount Zion. The third throne is God the Holy Spirit, always located in man upon earth at the camp of the saints.
5. Of this He who sits upon the throne says, "He that conquers shall inherit all things, and I will be His God and he shall be My son."
6. Therefore their indivisible and pre-eternal Deity is thus named: The Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit; these three are one.
book 7, article 2, verse 3-6 (page 376)




Was maxim a Trinitarian?


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[RedOctober]

(01-06-2011 09:16 PM)KPN Wrote:  So...for clarity.

Is it safe to say that most molokans believe Jesus is God the Son, as long as Jesus is not placed equal with the Father?

It would be safe...but, you would open the door to confusion. The term "God the Son" is not found in the Bible and gives the implication of co-equality. And indeed it is a term created for the Trinity Doctrine. Hence sticking to "Son of God" which is in the Bible and doesn't convey co-equality would for all intents and purposes be preferable and wouldn't cause any confusion.

Quote:As a side note.....I recall an incedent that happended in L.A. young church about 7 years ago.

In a speech, an elder declared that Jesus was the Savior, but God was greater. (Бог выше)
The statement was not, "The Father is greater."
The statement was "God was greater."

This statement seems to contradict the bible.
Jesus never said that God is greater.

Later, the Holy Spirit rebuked this man for that statement.

I'd would also say stating "God is greater" is an incorrect statement. It only states in the Bible (and S&L) that the Father is greater.

Quote:In our attempt to understand the exact role of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, have the molokans gone too far and rejected the amount of power that God the Son truely has?

I wouldn't think so. The Trinity Doctrine never used to be an issue, then it started creeping in...so in addition to fighting those who elevate MGR to far, there is now a battle to keep Christ as who he says he is.

Quote:Also, if Maxim was not afraid to proclaim that Jesus was God, why would any molokan be ashamed to also proclaim that Jesus is God.
7 Ибо три свидетельствуют на небе: Отец, Слово и Святый Дух; и Сии три суть едино.
Первое послание Иоанна 5:7

After the last pseudo-Christian evangelical movement attacked our people an they finally halted their disruptive activities, I believe there was a prophesy stating that there would be another one...but it would be done from within.....lo and behold, seems like we may have that. It may seem like semantics or being a little too critical on wording, however, you don't want to give the impression that Molokans are indeed supporters of the Trinity Doctrine when nothing is further from the truth. Just a sign of the times...and the caution is understandable...and I agree with it.

Quote:Also, what about the dogmas from 1805.
What does the modern day molokan do with the first of the 1805 dogmas.

Article 1 - God We believe in only one God, who exists in Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, as Apostle St. Paul said in his epistle to the Ephesians, Chapter 2, verse 20, "Built upon the foundations of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone." And Christ said in Matthew, Chapter 28, verse 19, "Going therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

But nowhere will you see anything stating implicitly that they are co-equal. And you have to take into account who this was written for, not so much as Molokans as it was for the Tsar. And the point was to be relieved from the persecution. Do you think the Tsar would been very accommodating if it stated "we believe in a Trinity but reject the definition from the Trinity Doctrine and do not believe the Son co-equal to the Father".....a statement like that would almost guarantee a massacre of ethnic cleansing proportions. Furthermore, if they ascribed to the Trinity Doctrine, all they had to do is say "we believe in the Trinity Doctrine" and that would put an end to all arguments and eliminate all doubts. But instead, when you include what they actually believe and the dangerous religious-political climate....its pretty obvious, it was worded "very carefully"...one as to not to ascribe to the doctrine and the other, to allow the Tsar to come to his own conclusion, even if it was an erroneous conclusion, just so the torturing, robbing of infants, killings, etc. would stop. People forget, Russia was not the United States of today...and even in 1805 in the USA you had slavery and a whole host of other issues.



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