Khlysty

[RedOctober]

I've been saying this all along...that all the documentation relating Pryguny Molokans to Khlysty is not very reliable and should be treated with suspicion....well...its nice to see something saying essentially the same thing.

http://www.molokane.org/molokan/Religion...lysty.html

Some notes, Livanov is often quoted to be used against Pryguny...here's what was said:
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Quote:[font=verdana]F.V. Livanov devoted a whole series of writings to the Khlysts and the Eunuchs. He described a history of the Tatarinova sect with its divine service cult. However, he did not check the information. He expressed confidence that the Khlysts was a political organization which posed danger to the state and society, and basically focused on the sect’s history and ceremonial practice. However, the style of the book Dissenters and Jailers [or: Schismatics and Criminals] can hardly be called scientific, as it was written in a non-academic, popular style. When reading Livanov’s works, one might think that he must have written them for ordinary illiterate people with the purpose of making them afraid of the Khlysts. As a result, his book is of little scientific value and the information in his works should be carefully checked.

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Oh and Melnikov....

Quote:[font=verdana]As a writer, Melnikov based his research about the Khlysts on oral communications without checking their reliability. One can forgive a writer for using of unchecked information, but as long as Melnikov was a researcher and an official of special orders, he should have chosen his sources of information more carefully. Unfortunately, he made the same error when writing Otchet o sostoyanii raskola v Nizhegorodskoy gubernii [The Report on the Condition of the Schism in the Nizhniy Novgorod Province], for the Home Office. This certainly reduces the quality of his work considerably

[/font]As for Klibanov...

Quote:[font=verdana]Klibanov published the whole series of monographs, articles and literary sketches devoted to the history and public role of Russian heretical movements and sects, including the Khlysts. However, his works on the history of khristovery, as he called them, were mostly based on the research of previous authors.

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Of course..reading the chapter we understand previous work as being unreliable. Hence, Klibanov's work is also questionable.

Bottom line, the incessant claims of those who say there is a Khlysty and Pryguny connection...have no claim as the very sources they proport, are questionable. Thus to say MGR and LPS we're Khylsty based on the information often cited...is a big fat lie. Its sort of like saying the myth about George Washington chopping the cherry tree is true because George Washington existed. Makes no sense.
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[Pavel]

What is the difference between saying that we came from Khlysty and saying that we came from the Russian Orthodox? Jesus was a jew too. Muslims come from Abraham. Does that mean Jesus was muslim or Mohammed was a jew?

[RedOctober]

Pavel Wrote:What is the difference between saying that we came from Khlysty and saying that we came from the Russian Orthodox? Jesus was a jew too. Muslims come from Abraham. Does that mean Jesus was muslim or Mohammed was a jew?

Valid arguement. But of course, thier arguement is, he was always a Khlysty...And just for arguements sake, lets say he was.....couple of problems then arise, he was obviously a very bad one.

1. Khlysty were covert and didn't attract attention to themselves.

2. They weren't in business to convert swaths of people.

3. Finally, they were charged with being upstanding citizens as in, if they were an Orthodox Priest, he was supposed to be a good one, and contnue preaching the Orthodox faith to the masses.

In other words, MGR would not be preaching Khlystic beliefs, attract any attention to himself and would be a closely gaurded secret. The guy in the back of the church who was just a good church member was more likely to be a Khlysty.

[RedOctober]

Thinking about moving this to the open section....any suggestions?

[Daniel M B]

There's quite a few diffrent opions about "khlysty" at the moment
Maybe the open section would be a good idea.

[RedOctober]

Thread moved.

[Daniel M B]

I talked to a couple of elders from the old land about what the view on Klysty was.
Klysty where a closed group that welcomed Lukian Petrovich as a prophet and accepted the true word of God.
Gave up swine and wine and started to keep the bible holidays.
Later Matvei Simonich prophesied of the last days and that they must pray and be HEARD by God.
They then, when they prayed, would stomp their feet (not jump) and clap their hands, to key words.
Later when Simion Matveich brought songs to them, they did the same to a rhythmic beat.
As for jumping, no one heard of them jumping,(I'm assuming that if the song got up tempo they could have started to jump)
The elders have not seen or heard of any Klysty around now. (being a closed group there MAY be a group(S) still active)

Other groups looked onto the molokans for inspiration, and if our for fathers "dropped in" to the Klysty once in a while to say hello,
and share the word of God they may have picked up/given/received the Spirit, that might have progressed into gifts.

From what I understood the Klysty where "inspired" from the molokans not the other way around!

[Guest]

(03-09-2010 01:46 PM)Daniel M B Wrote:  I talked to a couple of elders from the old land about what the view on Klysty was.
Klysty where a closed group that welcomed Lukian Petrovich as a prophet and accepted the true word of God.
Gave up swine and wine and started to keep the bible holidays.
Later Matvei Simonich prophesied of the last days and that they must pray and be HEARD by God.
They then, when they prayed, would stomp their feet (not jump) and clap their hands, to key words.
Later when Simion Matveich brought songs to them, they did the same to a rhythmic beat.
As for jumping, no one heard of them jumping,(I'm assuming that if the song got up tempo they could have started to jump)
The elders have not seen or heard of any Klysty around now. (being a closed group there MAY be a group(S) still active)

Other groups looked onto the molokans for inspiration, and if our for fathers "dropped in" to the Klysty once in a while to say hello,
and share the word of God they may have picked up/given/received the Spirit, that might have progressed into gifts.

From what I understood the Klysty where "inspired" from the molokans not the other way around!

From what you understood....interesting.......where are your facts. My father of 90 years old and born and raised in Russia told me that Maxsim had much influence from the Klysty and that is when the Molokans have deviated from the true faith. Maxsimists where never heard of back than in Russia until know when the younger generation have made it worst for all....look at all the divisions within the Molokans.

[RedOctober]

Probably getting the "facts" the same route you got your own. Almost any Molokan can give a passed down account of MGR. And of course you believe you are right because the story came down from your own family.

The written material has reliability issues as well as I posted above. The only author that isn't mentioned is Dinglstead, but even in that book he admits he is against Molokans and hopes they will come to their senses. He even wrote that MGR stated the world would end in 1857 and 1860....of course he was banished in Sept. 1858 and didn't reach the first Monastery until 1860...and his writings didn't start coming out until well after that, so there is a contradiction right there. Which brings up another question...how old was your father when he met MGR?

Another question, was it really MGR? There was an impostor who came to the village claiming to be him. The family and Priguni Molokans stated it wasn't him, but the Postyanni were all to happy to take the guy at his word.

And of course, were they really Khylsty? Little facts are actually know about them and anti-sectarian propaganda from the Orthodox/Russian Government has muddied up quite a bit. How do we know they weren't another religious group and some thought they were Khlysty, particularly the Dervish Muslims who, like the Khlysty, "spin". See Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dervish ...and of course, they happen to be in the same region.

Every scholar that gives us info on MGR has been the same, he was arrested for treason (i.e. erecting a pole and claiming there village was not part of the Russian Empire....a big No-No in an area that resented Russian rule), and official records state he died at the second Monastery he was sent to.

And that's it. That is the only unbiased, reliable and scholastic information available. There is so little to go on, even Breyfogle decided to concentrate on Dukabors rather than Molokans so he could have something academic to publish. Even the title Molokan is hard to define because the vast majority of religious sects that didn't fit with the other groups were labeled this. Molokan essentially meant "All other religious sects not classified" in many regards.

Thus anyone's opinion on MGR is just as good as the other.

[Daniel M B]

Guest,
My grandmother was 98 when she died 20 years ago.
Her mother told her of her father that worked with Maxim.
He was also a prophet. If I tell you about those prophesies, will you think other wise about Maxim?
Will his (great grandfather) suffering and death make you a believer?
Does it matter were jumping came from?
If you believe where it is written that we came from all people and nations and tongues,
surely you would understand that a little bit this and a bit of that (through Gods wisdom)
has become what we know as "Molokanisim"
In the S&L it is written (history section) that Semion Matveich sent his singers all over to find songs
that could be sung in "sobrania" (and most of those songs we still sing).
I've heard those old tunes, not all of them sound Russian.
The important thing here is that we honor our fore fathers for their works and faith
and hold on to what they gave us!