Russian, English or both?

[Daniel M B]

TTT

Some gatherings use only Russian.

Some use only English (as we have seen)

In this age where the majority of molokans live in English speaking countries,
should we lean towards English?

Or to keep the tongue, go all Russian?

Or is there a happy middle, every one will be happy with?

All our scripture is available in English besides the pesnik and molitvenik being fully translated, we're almost there.

With all the new arrivals from Russia and Armenia, who do not understand English, is there any one that knows
Russian well enough to say exactly what they mean?

Hmmm.......tough one!

[RedOctober]

Your arguments defy logic. You imply that there is a significant sized group who reject MGR. If factual then a church devoid of his writings could easily be established and held with significant numbers. And given the ease of which another Molokan church can break away and establish itself with its own unique identity (few would debate that), one cannot make the argument of outside pressures creating a barrier.

Next, your statement "It is interesting to note that many true believers in Christ remain as active molokans as long as they are mostly quiet about what they believe. " is only conjecture. Every person who accepts MGR as King of Spirits also believe themselves as true believers in Christ. As evidence, Christ is King of Kings..therefore above King of Spirits. Are there a few who place the King of Spirits in too high of a regard? Of course, but this problem is not unique to Molokans, amongst Protestants you have people who for all intents and purposes worship certain evangelicals such as Oral Roberts, Billy Graham, etc.

In your second paragraph you imply a witch hunt....this is quite, bemusing. There have only been two great "purges" amongst Molokans. The first was indeed the Reformed Church, but one could easily argue they purged themselves. In its current iteration, its members, former members and supporters are still allowed to fully partake (with the exception who have formally and completely left). Only very small handful were considered "akaznee" and even then those that were didn't show much enthusiasm about even as so much as visiting.

The second purge occurred with the church called "Clark Street". Where the Reformed Church was at one end of the spectrum, Clark Street was at the opposite end. If your implications hold true, then it would be assumed that relations with this group would be even more cordial. Of course, that isn't factual at all. Current members of Clark Street who visit the mainstream Molokan Churches are required to sit and stand in the back. Some ex-members have first been required to ask for forgiveness of the church before being allowed to join...even then being viewed with much suspicion from a number of individuals. And if anyone was in support of Clark Street from the outside, they are most certainly silent.

All in all, Clark Street has had more issues with acceptance than those of the Reformed. And the reasoning is simple to understand, those who reject the King of Spirits are simply viewed as rejecting a Prophet like unto Moses, Elijah or one of the Apostles. Yes its an issue, however, they are still viewed as like minded believers in Christ. Whereas those of Clark Street are not. If the claims of those in opposition of MGR were factual (that is those who accept MGR as King of Spirits place him above Christ), then the opposite would hold true. The rhetoric doesn't support the actions.

(04-26-2010 09:13 AM)d Wrote:  In reference to the changes made, see the original post below; changes were made consistently with their beliefs. Those beliefs don't include Maxim Gavrilovich as anything more than a man, so they removed the praise given the the king of spirits, and any other such name given to himself. The same beliefs in fact which are shared by many practicing molokans who are able to put up with the true believers in Maxim Gavrilovich, because they appreciate remaining in the molokan fold.

It is interesting to note that many true believers in Christ remain as active molokans as long as they are mostly quiet about what they believe. And the orthodox molokans are content as long as they keep their faith quiet. But as soon as they see room for our people to grow and mature as a christian people, the witch-hunt begins. It is eerily familiar to many stories from when the molokans awoke in the orthodox church, and also when the jumpers awoke in the molokans.

(04-14-2010 11:28 AM)d Wrote:  The molokan reformed church is in Woodburn Oregon. Actually it is on page 167 of the 2004 molokan directory. They do the old molokan obryat, which is what the basic molokan sunday morning church is in the rest of the churches. Sitting at benches for sizhma then standing for prayer and singing.
Also they do the 'old obryat' for their funerals, etc.. Which is just a different set of songs and prayers; more scripture.

Their setup is pretty much the same as the rest of the molokan churches, with three exceptions:
1) No 'Book of the Sun'. The only spirit and life they have are the words of Jesus Christ. (John 6:63)
2) No restrictions on language, they allow russian and english; in prayers, speeches and songs. Mostly all molokan songs with the same tunes sung in english.
3) No bloodline restrictions on who is allowed to attend.

For more detailed info see page 167 of the 2004 molokan directory and call the Minister. I assume it is also in the 2008 directory, It is called the Christian Molokan Church of Woodburn.

[RedOctober]

Its a question that seems destined to never be answered.

On one hand, we conduct most of our lives in the English language and thus it would seem the conversion should occur. By further holding on the language it seems to become more of a Catholic and Orthodox endeavor. You can even argue that more would come to understanding of matters of the Molokan Faith if English were predominately used. Thus there is significant pressure to go this route.

On the other hand, is the Russian language being kept purely because its considered a "Holy" language? The answer is of course not. Its kept as a heritage, a language of beauty and of course as a commandment from the Holy Spirit via ironically enough, from an American Pentecostal Prophet. There is no denying it has helped maintain our own separate identity in what the world and this country describes itself as the great melting pot. Its been stated continuously we would not survive another 10 years, generation, etc. Yet several decades and generations later...we still have not been absorbed completely into the melting pot. Has it had its drawbacks, of course. But in terms of history its still impossible to determine if the drawbacks outweigh the benefits or vice versa.

The other argument is the language is a barrier for understanding our faith. Maybe at one time that was factual, but it would be silly to make that case now. The vast majority of Molokan literature is available now in English (and even some of it is only available in English). One could argue that speeches in gatherings are still in Russian, however, English speeches are increasing in frequency and if someone truly wanted to know what a Russian speech was about, one only has to ask. I'm sure the one giving the speech would be all too happy and flattered that someone asked.

I would like to submit another reason for keeping the language. Perhaps its a reminder not to get too comfortable in the current nation of residence. What if the next movement is to a nation where English is not the predominant language? Eventually the following generations will pick up the new language and English would be forgotten. All the English translations will slowly become less useful....unless you attempt to force everyone to learn English...but then you have the perplexing problem of trying to educate everyone in both English and Russian. A very daunting task to say the least. If the repository of Molokan literature and services is still kept in Russian, then the translations will only have to occur from Russian to the new language of the land.

Of course some believe we will never leave the United States and it will remain a viable power indefinitely, thus English will always be the the dominant language of the world. As an Economist and arm chair historian, that thinking is naive. History and economics says otherwise, the dominant language always shifts to the more powerful economic entity. And history has shown this true time and time again.

(04-27-2010 08:42 PM)Daniel M B Wrote:  TTT

Some gatherings use only Russian.

Some use only English (as we have seen)

In this age where the majority of molokans live in English speaking countries,
should we lean towards English?

Or to keep the tongue, go all Russian?

Or is there a happy middle, every one will be happy with?

All our scripture is available in English besides the pesnik and molitvenik being fully translated, we're almost there.

With all the new arrivals from Russia and Armenia, who do not understand English, is there any one that knows
Russian well enough to say exactly what they mean?

Hmmm.......tough one!

[Daniel M B]

Acts 2:
4-And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5-And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6-Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7-And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak, Galileans?

8-And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9-Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10-Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11-Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

12-And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?..............

I counted 18 different groups(+"..every nation under heaven"), yet there was 11 apostles (or so).

Did they hear their own tongue? Or did they hear the Spirit speaking?

Every one understood the same language?

The Apostles were speaking in fiery tongues or different tongues?

The point is, that they were gathered to hear "..the wonderful works of God."

Isn't learning, in this case, Russian, to understand what is being said, sung, prayed, prophesied etc, works?

"What good is it that you speak in tongues, and no one understands you..." (or some do and some don't)

An elder once said "..whose fault is it that your children do not understand Russian....?"

He has a good point!

[Guest]

(04-28-2010 03:24 PM)Daniel M B Wrote:  Acts 2:
4-And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5-And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6-Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7-And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak, Galileans?

8-And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9-Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10-Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11-Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

12-And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?..............

I counted 18 different groups(+"..every nation under heaven"), yet there was 11 apostles (or so).

Did they hear their own tongue? Or did they hear the Spirit speaking?

Every one understood the same language?

The Apostles were speaking in fiery tongues or different tongues?

The point is, that they were gathered to hear "..the wonderful works of God."

Isn't learning, in this case, Russian, to understand what is being said, sung, prayed, prophesied etc, works?

"What good is it that you speak in tongues, and no one understands you..." (or some do and some don't)

An elder once said "..whose fault is it that your children do not understand Russian....?"

He has a good point!

And whose fault is it when your Molokan children leave the church,drink,smoke dope,have sex because they don't understand what is being said and go some where else to hear God's word?

Good point!

[mud]

(04-27-2010 08:42 PM)Daniel M B Wrote:  TTT

Some gatherings use only Russian.

Some use only English (as we have seen)

In this age where the majority of molokans live in English speaking countries,
should we lean towards English?

Or to keep the tongue, go all Russian?

Or is there a happy middle, every one will be happy with?

All our scripture is available in English besides the pesnik and molitvenik being fully translated, we're almost there.

With all the new arrivals from Russia and Armenia, who do not understand English, is there any one that knows
Russian well enough to say exactly what they mean?

Hmmm.......tough one!

Very good questions. Is there a happy middle? We will definitely see a division in our future over the Russian language, more so than it is now. I believe this is due to the fact that once our current elders are gone... hardly anyone can hold true to a fluent Russian language. So we'll either attend a church that chops, struggles through, and butchers the Russian language without anyone hardly understanding... or we will have to accept more English into the 'obrad'. Or... is there a happy middle? I really don't know.

But I do know this. My generation (30 something) and younger are not Russian Molokans. We are American Molokans. Practically everything we do is Americanized. We are a different culture through and through.

I'm raising my kids with Russian as their first language so that they can understand what is going on in church... not many others are. But therein lies the importance for me. I want my kids to understand what is said and taught in church, I want them to be fully aware when worshiping God in Spirit and truth. I can honestly say... if I wasn't teaching my children Russian... I wouldn't take them to a Russian speaking church. Gathering in worship of our Lord in one accord and understanding is way more important than a language.

This may rub people the wrong way... I'm sorry and don't mean to come off offensive at all. But I do believe it's something we should all think about. I love our church, our people, our heritage, our language... but I can't very well keep it going by myself or even with the very few others that actually can speak enough Russian to 'get by'. We shouldn't be just trying to 'get by' in the Russian language. We should be moving forward and advancing in the word of God with it... and if we can't... then there's a problem.

[RedOctober]

(05-01-2010 06:13 AM)Guest Wrote:  And whose fault is it when your Molokan children leave the church,drink,smoke dope,have sex because they don't understand what is being said and go some where else to hear God's word?

Good point!

So the parents upbringing of a child has no effect in your contorted opinion. If they turn out bad, blame the religion, blame the language. etc....absolve yourself of any and all responsibility. Apparently in your mind its the job of the church, not yours, to raise children and prepare them for the dangers of the world. If thats the case, then why are many of the same problems are found in other religions where it be Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant? Or do you go to a church that just sweeps them under the rug (as many do), do a little prayer, forget about them and move on?

[birdma]

(05-01-2010 06:13 AM)Guest Wrote:  And whose fault is it when your Molokan children leave the church,drink,smoke dope,have sex because they don't understand what is being said and go some where else to hear God's word?

And which church is this that you "drink,smoke dope,have sex" ..."to hear God's word" ?


By that way, I think this qualifies as the:
Greatest post ever from "guest"


Steve

[Guest]

I agree that it is the parents responsibility to raise their kids.

But, don't you think the church has some responsibility?

What does this scripture mean?

17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17 NKJV

Kevin Nazaroff

P.S.
This is my first post here.
I well never post anything unless my name is attached.

(05-04-2010 07:10 AM)RedOctober Wrote:  

(05-01-2010 06:13 AM)Guest Wrote:  And whose fault is it when your Molokan children leave the church,drink,smoke dope,have sex because they don't understand what is being said and go some where else to hear God's word?

Good point!

So the parents upbringing of a child has no effect in your contorted opinion. If they turn out bad, blame the religion, blame the language. etc....absolve yourself of any and all responsibility. Apparently in your mind its the job of the church, not yours, to raise children and prepare them for the dangers of the world. If thats the case, then why are many of the same problems are found in other religions where it be Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant? Or do you go to a church that just sweeps them under the rug (as many do), do a little prayer, forget about them and move on?

[Daniel M B]

(05-04-2010 09:54 PM)birdma Wrote:  

(05-01-2010 06:13 AM)Guest Wrote:  And whose fault is it when your Molokan children leave the church,drink,smoke dope,have sex because they don't understand what is being said and go some where else to hear God's word?

And which church is this that you "drink,smoke dope,have sex" ..."to hear God's word" ?


By that way, I think this qualifies as the:
Greatest post ever from "guest"


Steve

I'm hoping that last comment was in sarcasm, Steve.

Obviously "Guest" is not molokan "..yourmolokan children.."

I "went out" in the 80's, and the things that guest mentioned went on
back then as well. Talking to the "older" generations, they also said
things of this nature went on. These things have been going on always.
If we read the Bible, we will see that God put up with it, to a point.
Then He told His prophets to tell the people to STOP!
As we see not many listened and were destroyed.
The messengers of God are telling us now that we must repent and
come back to Him. Are we in line for destruction? Seems that way!

We were taught Russian by our parents, we were also taught the Bible
and Spirit and Life, we had prayer every night and all took turns.
Our parents took us to church 3 times a week end.
My father took time off (he worked night shift) to take us to spefka and
Bible classes. Plus Russian school, Saturday mornings.
When we started to go out, if it was Saturday or Sunday night, it was
after church. If the girls wanted to go out, they went to church first.
We weren't angels, but we had respect! The cops used to call us
"The well mannered, white tee shirt gang" (not for the wrong reasons)
Spefkas and Bible classes were always full (at one stage 4 times a week,
different groups)

I'm not putting myself higher than anybody else, I wanted to make a
point of how our parents raised us.

Did your parents raise you the same way?
Are you raising your kids in the same manner?
If your parents didn't raise you this way, will you raise your kids the
same as you were raised? Yes? Well there's the beginning of the problem.

Some one mentioned being "Americanized" I have to agree. Every nation
has it's own culture, even the English speaking nations, I can even say
the different states in the same country have different cultures.

The Molokans have their own culture as well, that is why we are called
"peculiar", I believe we must teach this to our children, or else
Molokans are not going to be around for very long