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[wall]

(01-07-2010 01:52 PM)RedOctober Wrote:  

(01-07-2010 12:53 PM)wall Wrote:  Don't toot our horn to loud. I know one Molokan church has around a $7,000 dollar joining fee. And it almost got up to $12,000.

I wouldn't say a majority of other churches preach this false message. I have many relatives and friends who belong to a number of different churches, and this message isn't preached. Maybe the attendence are just very willing to share their money. Some churches practice tithing according to the old law, which would allow such extravagant buildings. Reading the Old Testament one of my favorite parts was when building things such as the Ark of the Covenent or the Temple how free and opened peoples hearts were at donating to such projects. Tithing, unless done personally is not something us Molokans practice or understand. I've mentioned it to a few Molokans when we needed money for church projects, I got looks like I'm crazy.

Once in a while I watch Creflo Dollar on TV. He's one of the worse 'donate your money and God will bless you tenfold' type. I had to stop, the wife didn't want to hear me yelling at the TV anymore. Now I call him Creflo MillionDollar.

I have to giggle a bit at that wall. How many lavish ornate churches do you see amongst the Molokans? When was the last time a church was shut down due to not pulling in enough "income"? How often do you hear a funding drive? Does donating in a Molokan Church get you a better seat? How much do our ministers....virtually a full time job, get paid?

If the church recently moved I can see the reason for a high cost to join. If nothing else, to cover the costs of building, remodeling, insurance, permits, etc.

Oh I agree many don't "preach" this message, quite frankly, most do there best to avoid this stigma. However, the economic pressures are there and "push" is much more relevant.

And on point with the Ark of the Covenant...lets remember, they used a tent. An extravagant temple didn't get started until much later...also thats when the Israelites seemed to be more prone to idolatry. Coincidence?

"Does donating in the Molokan church get you a better seat?"

I would say yes, that can sometimes happen.

"How much do our ministers get paid?"

Nothing, thats why its hard to hold them accountable when needed. Paid ministers has its benefits and downfalls, its also Scriptural. Non paid ministers has its benefits and downfalls.

What if the church that moved didn't need the money?

And the Ark was very detailed and extravagant in design. So was the tent and tools of worship. The community at the time gave many jewels and precious items to have it completed. You can see how detailed and extravagant it was by reading Exodus chapter 25 thru 28.

[RedOctober]

"Does donating in the Molokan church get you a better seat?"

I would say yes, that can sometimes happen.

So if someone donates a million they can get a front row position? Really? I'm not aware of any such occurrences....or is it alleged perception? Rumor? I recollect some time way back someone trying to sue a Molokan church because they would not give him a "position". Or is it someone disagree's with someone "with a better seat" and can't sway influence over someone else to censure the person with the better seat.

"How much do our ministers get paid?"

Nothing, thats why its hard to hold them accountable when needed. Paid ministers has its benefits and downfalls, its also Scriptural. Non paid ministers has its benefits and downfalls.

Not hold them accountable? Threats of leaving or actually leaving, throwing a fuss and causing one heck of a scene in church is not holding them accountable? Giving them grief on how they run things, being unappreciative, etc. Sure, its not monetary accountability...but probably far more stressful. And if they were paid, I can see it now "I pay your salary and I want ABC changed in church blah blah blah". As for being scriptural...Have to tackle that later. But would like reference to that if you have it. No recollection of ever reading it.

What if the church that moved didn't need the money?

And we know this how? And what does need entail? If they like having a reserve account...as people do get sick, tragedies do occur, etc. and if the church moving wiped most of it out, whats wrong with trying to keep a rainy day fund? No one is profiting from it.

Discuss the Ark later.

[wall]

I believe money being the root of all evil can cause funny things to happen in many situations. I know when someone donates a large amount of money to any organization they seem to have a stronger voice. As does someones family name. Its not always, but its happened. Isn't that one of the reasons Big Church was formed? To break the yoke of one dominating family in a church? Theres a good example. Big Church has the committee that holds the ministers accountable. Many churches are structured that way, a committee of elders taking care of many decisions. Freeing the minister to focus on the Word and leading the flock Spiritually. Does the American churches have struture flawes? Of course. Do we? Of course. I don't believe any system is perfect, we are dealing with man who is very corruptible.

As for some of your questions I will choose not to answer. Why dwell on such issues? Why spread the dirt publicly? I just wanted to remind ourselves before beating our chests too hard pointing at the stick in some other churches eye, lets be aware about our own plank. If I offended you forgive me.

I'm not a fan of the Mega churches, I don't understand how anyone can have personal relationship with others in one so big. But one thing I do like about them is the free counseling and workshops they have. I've known many people who have taken advantage of these free programs, whether it is for stress, smoking, drugs, marriage, etc. I bet alot of the money they raise go towards programs such as this. Not to mention many of them sending missionaries around the world.

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(01-07-2010 04:45 PM)RedOctober Wrote:  [i]
And we know this how? And what does need entail? If they like having a reserve account...as people do get sick, tragedies do occur, etc. and if the church moving wiped most of it out, whats wrong with trying to keep a rainy day fund? No one is profiting from it.

I did want to share a thought with part of your comment above. I believe membership in a House of God shouldn't even have a price. But I can understand something reasonable or even a suggested price, with no one knowing what the new member chose to give. And I agree with yearly dues for up keep. But such a huge membership fee plus the yearly dues sounds like something the Catholics would practice. Nothings wrong with a rainy day fund or reserve account for needy, but this should be given voluntarily by all membership. Not forced on new members looking for a home to worship in.

[Guest]

Let me see if a person gets upset at a church they start there own..........I have noticed this more and more lately churches splitting and run by family members.....is this by God....surely not. How can you justify these actions and allow this to happen and support these churches by attending. These splits were from anger or power struggles and are not of God.

[RedOctober]

Well Wall, thats where you and I disagree. I see the problem more in reverse, to me, too many people accept perception as reality. How often are contributions publicly recognized? Almost never. All to often its heard or discovered via word of mouth, which may or may not be totally accurate. Furthermore, one thing I have noticed, those who happen to donate something significant tend to be put under the microscope even more and if there are those who disagree with the individual heavily, they tend to be the most critical in a derogatory way.

As for church committee's....I don't agree with the idea....and will leave it there.

In regards of touting our own horn, this may surprise you, I don't think we as Molokans do it enough. Just within our own we are VERY critical and when you add the endless attacks by apostates....Its nothing short of a miracle that our religion isn't smaller. Not saying we shouldn't acknowledge our problems, but why do some insist we must be in a constant state of dreariness?

Finally on initiation fee's, I also think too many want something for nothing. Particularity when a church moves, some how a lesser valued property sold is supposed to cover the costs of a newer more expensive property? A < B does not equal to A > B. Also, if everyone get dinged for 10 grand for a new place and the day after you move in someone shows up (who already had a previous church) and want's to join without having sunk one penny in? Whose being the opportunist?

Your statement seems to also presume that a Molokan church turns away people who can't afford the dues? Whens the last time a Molokan church employed a collection agency? The answer to that is of course, never. Nor does not joining financially stop someone attending services. Next, if a person does want to join but can't afford, its not unheard of waiving part or all of the fee, someone stepping in to help or even working out something they could afford. Its not iron clad as you state.

[RedOctober]

(01-07-2010 08:00 PM)Guest Wrote:  Let me see if a person gets upset at a church they start there own..........I have noticed this more and more lately churches splitting and run by family members.....is this by God....surely not.

And you know God's mind how? But interesting take, by holding your absolutist definition, then every single Protestant Religion that split from the Roman Catholic Church is not by God.

And how do you know its not from God? One of the best things about all our church's being independent is if one or a group splits and goes off the deep end....they don't take everyone else with them.

(01-07-2010 08:00 PM)Guest Wrote:  How can you justify these actions and allow this to happen and support these churches by attending. These splits were from anger or power struggles and are not of God.

Anger or power struggles? Often enough you hear that via the rumor mill, but when you get to the source...the anger is usually because they were angry because they couldn't come to an agreement. So what are they supposed to do? Fight in church every Sunday?

What amazes me about your statement, you ask about how can anyone "support" the new church, yet all too often you will see members of their old church (and remain so) doing that exact thing....supporting them. So much for the power struggle and anger theory.

If two groups differ enough theologically, where it be the old church moving in a different direction or the new group wanting to move in a new direction...why not let them?

Are there examples where it was hot and heavy? Sure. We're all human and susceptible to mistakes. But maybe the split should have occurred sooner so it didn't get hot and heavy?

[Guest]

(01-07-2010 11:09 AM)stevepiv Wrote:  Red,

Of course they probably said God Blessed them after donating to their cause. BARF BARF BARF

And look at you today! should we be barfing or crying for your actions???