Short Timeline of MGR and other events.

[RedOctober]

1818 - Born
1825 - Parents Converted
1833 - Gift of Prophesy given to Molokans
1839 - Exile to Transcaucasia Ordered (under Tsar Nicholas I)
1848 - Holy Spirit descends on MGR
1858 - Arrested and eventually sent to prison.

Sources.

Biography of MG Rudemetkin, Daniel H Shubin
Molokan Christian Brotherhood of America, Peter Phillipich Shubin, 1963
Molokans in America, John K. Berokoff, 1969
Spirit and Life, Essay, Paul I Samarin

Note: Pretty easy to get this info and all the sources agree on the dates and I did this fairly quickly. Detractors often try to embellish other stories and attribute them to MGR, when not only the dates do not line up, but obvious details as well. Happens quite often in "echo-chamber" environments where there is a large capacity of vindictiveness and malice toward a certain group (and they often self justify themselves as some sort of outreach or the lone dissenting opinion). They will often dismiss facts that run contrary to what they want to believe, much like those who believe the moon landing was staged to use an example.

Ultimately, you can't argue with someone who is that delusional and hope others have enough sense to see through them. But as the famed Nazi Propagandist Joseph Goebbels stated "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." Sadly, some Molokans (or for that matter, any culture that's a recipient of this) are all too willing to believe a lie from an ex-member or outsider with an obvious untruthful agenda.

[ljk]

Red October,

Can you please explain to me what mgr was arrested for? I have always been told he was put in prison but I don't know what for.

Thanks!

(02-07-2012 10:03 AM)RedOctober Wrote:  1818 - Born
1825 - Parents Converted
1833 - Gift of Prophesy given to Molokans
1839 - Exile to Transcaucasia Ordered (under Tsar Nicholas I)
1848 - Holy Spirit descends on MGR
1858 - Arrested and eventually sent to prison.

Sources.

Biography of MG Rudemetkin, Daniel H Shubin
Molokan Christian Brotherhood of America, Peter Phillipich Shubin, 1963
Molokans in America, John K. Berokoff, 1969
Spirit and Life, Essay, Paul I Samarin

Note: Pretty easy to get this info and all the sources agree on the dates and I did this fairly quickly. Detractors often try to embellish other stories and attribute them to MGR, when not only the dates do not line up, but obvious details as well. Happens quite often in "echo-chamber" environments where there is a large capacity of vindictiveness and malice toward a certain group (and they often self justify themselves as some sort of outreach or the lone dissenting opinion). They will often dismiss facts that run contrary to what they want to believe, much like those who believe the moon landing was staged to use an example.

Ultimately, you can't argue with someone who is that delusional and hope others have enough sense to see through them. But as the famed Nazi Propagandist Joseph Goebbels stated "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." Sadly, some Molokans (or for that matter, any culture that's a recipient of this) are all too willing to believe a lie from an ex-member or outsider with an obvious untruthful agenda.

[RedOctober]

(02-08-2012 02:48 PM)ljk Wrote:  Red October,

Can you please explain to me what mgr was arrested for? I have always been told he was put in prison but I don't know what for.

Thanks!

Ok, but I'm warning you, be prepared to be under-whelmed. Basically he put up a post and on it (from Molokan Review, 1943)

Quote:The inner meaning of this inscription is as follows: .The time is coming when people, casting aside violence and oppression, will find peace in absolute freedom all over the world. The old regime of Czars and oppressing churches is about to collapse and to be trampled upon." The authorities, upon investigation, ruled that this inscription had a political significance, arrested M. G. Rudometkin and incarcerated him in the Alexandropol Fortress. The post was pulled down and taken to the yard of the Erivan Governor as evidence, and the banner was hidden away.

And thats pretty much it. Seems trivial, but remember, this was not Russia, but Armenia and an area that resented Russian rule and sure didn't like Russian settlers being imposed onto their land in the hopes of a land grab. This is just one source but there are others that more or less state the same thing (have to dig it up) and I also belive Dr. Breyfogle even confirmed this as well during a seminar with Molokans, but I can't confirm that as I wasn't there and heard through the grapevine.

Also, one other aspect and its confirmed in Dr. Breyfogle's Thesis, more and more of the Russian Sectarians there were no longer identifying themselves as Russian....but Molokan, Pryguni, Sabbatarian, etc. In essence, rejecting loyalty to the Tsar and Russian Orthodox. Long story short, it was a politically unstable area and what MGR wrote didn't help the stability.

Also the inscription even today amongst the Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant faiths (shoot, even some Molokans) is considered "dangerous" because it questions the legitamacy of just about any religion and its doctrines (such as when or if its appropiate to have infant baptisms, what a believer must believe, what is an acceptable church, etc.) it uses to rule over you. Hence maybe why you don't hear much of it, even by today's standards, is a pretty radical idea in any religion.

While I"m at it, why not knock down the "myths" of his arrest. There are many sadly, why? Ok lets say there is a Molokan named Sergei Federoff who likes to play hockey....who happened to also like the NHL hockey player Sergei Federoff who might be 10 - 20 years near his age. So 100 plus years from now there are records of these two people and someone with an agenda and/or a few screws loose says they these two are one and the same...sounds crazy...but happens a lot, particularly since Maxim is not a rare russian name, nor is Rudometkin. Heck google Russian NHL Hockey players and there are a few "Maxim's" on the list. Torture and twist history enough and add a few small facts for believability, you can get people to take it anything at face value.

Next, MGR had X number of wives, mistresses, etc. (the story on this always changes when I hear it) C'mon really? I'm always amazed someone falls for this. Many times they say he was arrested for this...of course the arrest record doesn't say that (according to reputable sources). Furthermore, this wasn't an arrestable offense. Exhibit A, Grigori Rasputin, someone who was known for sure to "play around" and have known dealings with the Khlysty.......and was close advisor to the Tsarina. If anything, the Orthodox Church would want to keep such a person for propoganda purposes in steering people away from the Sect....why would they want to help it?

And lets return to Dr. Breyfogle's thesis yet again, where a Priguni Molokan Minister (last name started with an A...cant remember the rest, but if you want it, give me some time to dig it up) actually tried to "play around"...what happened? The congregation threw him out and warned him if he tried to come back, it was going to hurt him real bad. And when you consider Priguni Molokan views both past and present on this...the logic just doesn't hold up.

And of course there were a couple of people who came back to the village claiming to be MGR (despite the fact the official records says he died in prison). One individual I talked to who went to Russia and heard the whole story about one them (PM me if you want to know who) states that MGR's family were able to confirm that none of them were MGR. You may ask who would want to impersonate him? Well, that area was colonized predominately not just Molokans and Priguni Molokans, but many Sects. So a person gets released from prison...comes back and finds out thier religious movement has failed or he is no longer welcomed back....so why not impersonate another religious leader you know is still in prison and happen to know some details about? This didn't just happen to Priguni Molokans either, one elder told me of a story where someone suceeded doing this to a Dukabor group.

Let me know if you need any more info.

[Guest]

(02-08-2012 09:38 PM)RedOctober Wrote:  Ok, but I'm warning you, be prepared to be under-whelmed. Basically he put up a post and on it (from Molokan Review, 1943)

Quote:The inner meaning of this inscription is as follows: .The time is coming when people, casting aside violence and oppression, will find peace in absolute freedom all over the world. The old regime of Czars and oppressing churches is about to collapse and to be trampled upon." The authorities, upon investigation, ruled that this inscription had a political significance, arrested M. G. Rudometkin and incarcerated him in the Alexandropol Fortress. The post was pulled down and taken to the yard of the Erivan Governor as evidence, and the banner was hidden away.

And thats pretty much it. Seems trivial,

Not so trivial.

He prophesied the end of the regime of the Czars and the beginning of the thousand year kingdom of Christ upon the earth.

Rudometkin was a Molokan, born near Morshansk, Tambov province, in central Russia. The Molokans as an entire religious community were exiled from central Russia to the south side of the Caucasus mountains in 1839 by order of Tsar Nicholas I. The Rudometkin family was among them, and in 1840 they settled in the city Nikitino (today known as Feoletovka), in the present-day Armenia. Rudometkin had strong evangelical convictions, and became a fervent leader of the Molokan community in the Armenia and Georgia regions; his influence was felt throughout southern Russia and the eastern Ukraine. Rudometkin was assured that Christ would initiate his millennial kingdom on earth during his lifetime.

In 1858 during a visit of the area by the Grand Dukes, the sons of the Tsar, he presented a statement to them stating that the Tsarist regime would soon terminate, that Imperial Russia would soon be destroyed by divine forces, and that the Orthodox church would collapse; subsequently the millennial kingdom of Christ would arise with himself, Rudometkin, at its head. As a result of this statement, he was arrested by the local police and taken to jail in Alexandropol (today known as Leninakan). He was also betrayed by members of his own community who were envious of his talent and influence. Rudometkin spent 6 months in jail there and was transferred on September 28, 1858, to some jail in the St. Petersburg area. He spent the winters there through April of 1860. While in St. Petersburg, based on the report of the Kavkazski Kommitet, he was sentenced by Imperial Order on December 25, 1858 to Solovki. The order was subsequently approved by the attorney-general of the Holy Synod, count A. P. Tolstoi, on January 12, 1859. Rudometkin arrived at Solovki on April 30, 1860, about 2 years after his arrest at his home town, and was placed in confinement in a prison cell. His adherents in Armenia submitted petitions on his behalf to the Holy Synod.

On a regular basis the father superior of Solovetski monastery, archimandrite Ponfiri, 1859-1865, requested the presence of Rudometkin in his chambers. Ponfiri recognized the talent and influence of Rudometkin, and tried to sway him to recant and become Orthodox, promising him authority and honor. But Rudometkin would refuse the offer, and after their discussion, would be escorted out and confined back in his cell.

Also read MGR Book 4 article 1: 7-14

[RedOctober]

Ok, first note "guest" here splices what I wrote (in order to misrepresent what I stated) and then splices a quote from the S&L in order to reinforce his premise (happens a lot from those who love denounce it). That being, MGR is a false prophet because the 1000 year Kingdom isn't established yet. But note how he glosses over the first part....Last I checked, the Tsar's no longer rule Russia and came to a bad end during the revolution. In fact, World War 1 ended pretty much all the monarchies in Europe or left them with only figure head power.

But despite MGR's prophesy being fulfilled here (and also ignoring and trying to deflect the fact that he was arrested for political issues), according to "Guest" he's false because the 1000 year Kingdom didn't occur. If we use his logic and reasoning, guess what? The Apostles are false as well, read below from the Bible:


Matthew 16

[27] For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done.
[28] Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."


Matthew 24

[33] So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates.[34] Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.[35] Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

1 Thessolonians 4

[14] For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
[15] For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.

1 Peter 4

[7] The end of all things is at hand; therefore keep sane and sober for your prayers.

James 5

[8] You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.


And this is just the New Testament. Is Jonah a false prophet because he thought that Nineveh’s destruction was imminent? I could go on both in the New and Old Testaments where things didn't play out as expected. Likewise, even with Prophesies of Molokans. But does that make them false? If you follow "Guest's" reasoning then we should all become atheists. . If nothing else, MGR is merely echoing what the Apostles stated. That’s one of the things with arguments, if you are going to have an applicable standard, be sure you don’t defeat your own point of view in the process. Sort of like those who love to label us a “cult”, if you look at their definitions they almost always are applicable to themselves as well. But in their arrogance and feelings of superiority (and let’s face it, they use the “c” word for no other purpose but to demean), they often don’t see the fingers pointing right back at them…and then they can’t figure out why everyone dismisses them.

Also "Guest" instructs us to read a portion of the S&L (and highlights something written outside of the S&L), but note not the whole context. Basically he tries to give us the impression that Christ's Kingdom is MGR's because the Archimandrite stated so. But if we read on:

13. Then I answered him, saying "Your highest reverence, how am I to blame if God Himself and His Son Jesus Christ chose me from among all the nations, and anointed me with their Holy Spirit as the third face, their eternal Melchizedek, to be the chief and leader of the new Israel?"

Note, Christ chose MGR to be a leader for our people and MGR corrected the Archimandrite....plus, MGR avoided the temptation to join with the Orthodox and have significant power and position. And that’s pretty much it. But what he misses; if MGR was truly someone who was out for himself…he would have accepted the offer. And to head off the next argument off at the pass...

"But Christ is our King!". Yes he is that and far more. He's King of Kings and Lord of Lords, our Redeemer, Savior, etc. But for his title "King of Kings" to have any meaning, there has to be other Kings, otherwise, it’s an empty title. And being a leader of a group of people does not make you Christ anymore than Moses, King David, an Apostle, Martin Luther, John Calvin, etc. Once again, if we use their argumentative standard, then you have to reject and condemn every leader.

Some for the S&L try to paint MGR as "all-knowing" and many against the S&L try to paint MGR as should be "all-knowing". The reality, MGR, like the Apostles, Moses, Prophets of the Bible, etc. were human and had human frailties. The Apostles wanted to see Christ return and even wanted to believe he would come in their lifetimes as did MGR. Moses no doubt expected to live and die in the Promised Land...but instead died within sight of it. Even today, many hope to see Christ's return and actually state they believe they will be alive for it, but does that make them false? The Bible commands us to always expect his return so as to not be caught unaware. But those who oppose the S&L and try to knock down MGR's prophesies, this is the best they got. Knock him down for doing what the Apostles did and living as if Christ could return at any moment. Basically, they state we shouldn't live as if Christ can return at any time.

[Guest]

Lets not gloss over verse 10.

10. He spoke to me proudly, saying "So you think our kingdom will soon perish from the face of the earth, [b]and your kingdom will, in place of ours,[b/] rule for a thousand years? This has never been and is impossible."

A more detailed account of the Pole that was raised in Denglshted"s writings, which the two Princes understood MGR as demonstrating the announcement of His Kingdom. Pages 60-71

Page 62, Denglshted writes that MGR taught that the Second Coming of Jesus Christ and the Millennial Kingdom was at hand.

After MGR was incarcerated, by the year 1865, the Molokan faith was returned to normal.

Now a true historian would try his best to get his facts straight so he would not be discounted later. Even though you would say he was biased.

[RedOctober]

LOL! I've been wondering if I should waste my time and dignify this with a response! Where to start?!

Quote:Lets not gloss over verse 10.

10. He spoke to me proudly, saying "So you think our kingdom will soon perish from the face of the earth, [b]and your kingdom will, in place of ours,[b/] rule for a thousand years? This has never been and is impossible."

And that negates what MGR actually stated in 13 how? MGR refuses an obvious corrupt Archmandrites offer and you take his side? MGR just proved he isn't corrupt like the Orthodox clergy...but you don't want to believe that so you put hands over your ears and go "la la la"...and accept an obvious corrupt individuals view. Do you know just how desperate you sound?

Quote:Now a true historian would try his best to get his facts straight so he would not be discounted later. Even though you would say he was biased.

Yes, he would get his facts straight.

http://www.molokanunderground.com/thread-579.html

Dinglestead...really? The same guy who stated MGR told a village to sell all their belongings because of the coming kingdom and did this in 1860? When MGR was already incarcerated! He even admits that he didn't actually do any investigation to verify..much less even visit the area. Hence his credibility....well...just isn't there.