Arguing with....

[Guest]

RO,

Why is it you won't bring your arguements to what you and others here call the "other site"? Don't you think you can knock down the arguements there? Or do you feel "safe" here?

[RedOctober]

(12-01-2011 09:17 AM)Guest Wrote:  RO,

Why is it you won't bring your arguements to what you and others here call the "other site"? Don't you think you can knock down the arguements there? Or do you feel "safe" here?

Ok...I'll bite.

First, work keeps me pretty busy, I occasionally have a chance to look in during lunch, but...even if wanted to respond, I can't. You see, I've been banned and can only hit the site via a proxy. And at home...I've got better things to do than argue with people delusioned with their self importance.

Next, what would be the point? They view and interpret scripture ONLY by man made doctrines. You know, the thing our forefathers were tortured (whipped with rose bushes and dragging the thorns on bare flesh, force marched in snow in with no shoes, children taken away from the parents because they were "heretics", etc.) and killed for (sometimes publically under gruesome circumstances that were long and protracted), all for refusing to accept their "doctrine" interpreted scripture and wanting to read for themselves and trust God would reveal the wisdom.

So how can you discuss scripture when you don't even agree how it is to be interpreted. For example, our forefathers read the Bible and found no solid proof text for ignoring the food laws...they take out of scripture context passages and declare that they nullify the food laws. And speaking about "context", when they state you take things out of context, what they are really saying is the scripture as defined by doctrine. So how do you reason when their side is opposed to using reason?

Now you could say, "but that was the Orthodox"....but how does Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant base doctrine differ? Once you strip away the fancy garments, nice cathedrals and remove all arguments over who has "control" of the church and final say on matters, there is no difference between all of them.

What I find rather amusing currently over there, FV is arguing with them, but using the exact same logic and methods they use! They blast the S&L as being his inspiration, but if anyone has noticed, not once has he quoted from it. He lost his posting privileges here because he was essentially trying to start up a new movement and stated that the traditional interpretation of the S&L was worthless as was celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles. And whats humorous, the Admin of the other site tries to portray his beliefs as the default beliefs of all S&L accepting Molokans. If that were true, you would hear a lot more of what he says in all the Molokan Churches and there would be plenty out there defending him. The "other site " Admins credibility....doesn't exist.

And finally, lets cut to the chase. They are not interested in an honest discussion, not one bit...and if they say they are, I'll call them a liar...and more than willing to say it straight to their face. They are only interested in converting Molokans to Protestants, period. That's it, nothing else. Now some will say they aren't out to destroying Molokans...get real...if the Molokan Church is no different than a Protestant Church around the corner, why support it? Instead of driving 30 minutes or more, they can walk 5 minutes, after all it will be in essence the same church. Of course they say "we're just returning to our roots"....really? Then start a Postyanni Church, I'm sure our distant cousins in the Bay area will be more than willing to help....but they don't want that because, even the Postyanni Church doesn't uphold Catholic-Orthodox-Protestant base doctrine. Of course we have a rich history and acts where miracles were performed (such as resurrections of children due to unfortunate accidents, healings that even includes a case of cancer...albeit the only one, but flu in the early 1900's was no joke and plenty of other illnesses, etc.) and of course they will call them coincidences, charlatans taking credit, etc. anything to down play and ignore them (reminds me a lot of the Old Testament Israelites, despite what they saw, they still fell to other gods) But yet they are the ones that believe that right before the tribulation, they are just going to magically vanish into thin air and despite that the world has heard of "rapture" in some form, no one is going to think that happened.

Also as proof they aren't interested in the exchange of ideas and knowledge, go back to the "other site" and see how often the labeling starts and where it starts. The second they feel threatened, they will begin using words in negative conjecture such as heresy, cult, possessed, demonic, etc. And they will change subjects (with the help of others) by going into a tangent and if you point that out, they will jump all over you and interestingly enough, force you to change subjects due to their vile words. And if that doesn't work, have no fear, someone will post a huge non-applying wall of text that starts as if its applying to subject then go off into several different areas, as if they were trying to sound important and relevant (a professor once told me, if you can't make your argument concise, then everyone knowledgeable will know you are full of it). They are afterall, seasoned "pro's" who have learned their trade from other instructors who tell them how to diffuse arguments they are losing and re-focus on the deception of conversion. They indeed use the whole Bible, but not for altruistic purposes, but for their gain.

Ultimately, you have to decide if you are going to trust man (their doctrines interpreting scripture, institutions, beliefs that often agree with what you want to hear, etc.) or trust God (which is often not the easy road...its a tough job trying to do what God wants, just ask Christ who was perfect and ultimately sacrificed for no wrong).

[IV]

Another way to look at it...is why argue? Some people want to argue until they're blue in the face, but how does that help anyone? Arguing certainly isn't Godly.

2 Timothy is a good read on the subject.

Quote:23 But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.
24 The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

[Guest]

What do you say about the recent newcomers on the "other site" who are looking to leave. Doesn't that bother you? Aren't you worried if this trend continues that the Molokan religion will fall?

[RedOctober]

Uh...you answered your own question when you said "looking to leave". If someone is on the "other site" to get answers, come on, they already made their decision, they just want it reinforced by "yes men" which there are plenty of over there. Their goal there is to convert Molokans into Protestants, not be objective. Shoot, I've had Non-Molokans e-mail me to look up info on Molokans and whenever they mention the other site, its usually just to confirm that its not a Molokan site and more or less a gripe session..

Does it worry me? Nope. Always going to happen. Lets face it, being Molokan is not easy, whereas attending the church around the corner is. But for most, like me, that cannot be an option. Why? Faith. The entire Molokan nation could collapse tomorrow and disassemble and everyone could go their separate ways.....and I still would not be able to attend a Protestant church because my beliefs and faith will not change one bit, my faith is in God...not community. Sure community is nice, but....Molokans have always been and will probably continue to be in the minority. It was no different for those in Israel during the Old Testament period.

There are some who leave with maturity and just come to the realization that they don't accept Molokan views...and they go on to live happy and productive lives. Then there are the others who feel like they need to go out with some kind of bang. For some reason they feel the need to insult and hurt their friends and family (people who've always stood by them through thick and thin) and then tell them to go to hell. Literally. Because they call their beliefs false and give out the common package objections and if they don't change their views and join them in leaving, then they are going to hell. And of course the common package objections border on lunacy. For example:


The most often cited is the S&L, MGR, etc. Part one is usually how it doesn't line up with common X-tian doctrine. Nah really? Ummm...hello, even without the S&L Molokan beliefs do not line up with X-tian doctrine. We believe in prophesy, the Protestants haven't "officially" renounced it, but have a system in place that pretty much accomplishes that task. Then of course the other things we don't accept such as Trinity Doctrine, water baptism, rapture, etc.

Part two, MGR was <insert flavor of week wild baseless accusation>. Official records state (from both Molokan and Non-Molokans who have investigated) MGR was arrested for putting up a pole and a sign stating that the Tsar had no spiritual authority over them (and given that this was placed in a newly conquered territory known as Armenia that resented Russian rule...). He was then tried, and sentenced for rehabilitation in an Orthodox monastery...and that's it, no drama, no grandiose soap opera, nothing. Some will cite other authors who speculated on MGR (but never actually investigated or interviewed anyone) and then come to extra conclusions based on the authors unsubstantiated conclusions. And then I sit there and scratch my head and wonder how can people be duped by these unprovable, wild and baseless claims....then I turn on the TV and am reminded that there are people out there who think 9/11 was an inside job orchestrated by George W. Bush and Barack Obama is a Kenyan born Muslim with a Socialist and Fascist agenda (despite Socialism and Fascism being ideologically polar opposites), to quote Ron White "you can't fix stupid". For example, an ex-member here quoted Dinglestead on how MGR evangelized to a couple of villages that the world was going to end and they all sold their belongings, etc. Well for one, the author didn't actually go to these villages and investigate and verify any of the claims. Next, he gave the years when this happened...which presented a problem, MGR was in prison those years. When I pointed this out, his response was a knee jerk rationalization of speculation and conjecture. Can't have facts upset forgone conclusions that you want to believe as fact /sarcasm.

And of course there is the usual "Molokans are rude to me" type of statements. Well, then the question is, is your faith based on beliefs or people? And are ALL Molokans doing that...come on really? Yet again, an unqualified generalization to rationalize their departure.

Then the other usual suspect that's often mentioned. "I'm not learning, getting spiritually fed, etc. at church due to language/attitude/etc." Whenever I hear this one, I immediately want to respond "So, you don't know how to read?" The oldest Molokan tradition has to be reading your own Bible without outside influence, shoot, its virtually how the religion got started. And last I checked, there was no shortage of English Bibles. There are three different English S&L's, a translation of the prayerbook oh and I think the UMCA might still have copies of the English translation of the Pesnik...granted, it only has the most common songs....Ultimately, what they are saying is they just want be lectured and spoon fed a "sermon" rather than read and study. Funny thing is, sermons were what the Orthodox did and reading and studying on your own was illegal.

I could go on...but, got a lot of work to do.